Since everyone seems perfectly happy to hand over their rights without question, I’ve decided to join in, it’s so much easier when you stop thinking for yourself. Who needs choice, transparency, or accountability when compliance is so much more convenient?
For clarity, this is only happening because you’ve chosen to be on Intelligent Octopus Flux, the tariff where you get certain energy rates in return for giving Octopus control of your system?
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Surely, the correct response to Octopus setting controls that you don’t like is to discuss it with Octopus, or to change tariff to one that does not give Octopus exclusive control of your inverter?
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@WillyReckitt,
The “exclusive” wording in the T&Cs simply means I won’t give another third party direct control of my inverter at the same time.
It’s like if I agreed to be in an exclusive relationship, that doesn’t mean my partner gets to rearrange my house, change the locks, or throw away my belongings without my input. It just means I’m not seeing anyone else.
Octopus having exclusive control doesn’t mean I’ve surrendered all rights to my own system, it just means they’re the only external party I’ve authorised to send control commands. As the owner, I’m not a third party; I’m the first party.
As you tagged me, I’d be interested to see the source of your definition of “exclusive”.
Blockquote I’m not blocking Octopus from doing what Intelligent Flux is meant to do, I’m simply making sure their changes don’t damage battery longevity or cause silly behaviour (like ECO mode toggles or random SoC changes that have no bearing on demand response). The main “exclusive” commitment is about not letting someone else also control it, not about never touching my own kit.
Totally understand why you dont like the ulitilty company changing your configuration, Its the reason I abandoned Octopus and went to E.ON.
However the entire point of intelligent flux is that is prececely the point. Their automations (not a human) are controlling your infrastructure, to the net benefit of the utlity.
Doesnt matter if the “changes” dont make sense to you, its the very nature of the tarriff. And in order to realise the benefits (and be extension pay you more for hte privelege) the utility company need to have that control.
I work on these kinds of integrations for my day job, and from a design standpoint - its the only way it can work. You have to cede control completely, regardless of whether you think it makes sense or not.
Surely, the correct response to Octopus setting controls that you don’t like is to discuss it with Octopus, or to change tariff to one that does not give Octopus exclusive control of your inverter?
Its not surprising that Prosumers work to wrest back control, but given this is a beta tarriff, I would expect its only a matter of time before the controls over this tighten up (or the infractions are dealt with differently to assure consistency of service)
@WillyReckitt
You asked for the legal definition of “exclusive”.
FindLaw Legal Dictionary defines “exclusive” as:
“excluding or having power to exclude others… sole [control], [use]… limiting or limited to possession, ownership, or use by a single individual or group.”
Wikipedia defines an “Exclusive right” as:
“Legal power to do or receive something, and to allow/deny others the right to perform the same action or to acquire the same benefit.”
In contract law, exclusivity clauses grant one party sole rights within a defined scope, this could be over territory, negotiation rights, or operations, with no sharing allowed unless explicitly stated otherwise.
By strict letter of the law, “exclusive” can mean full control if the contract explicitly states that it covers all aspects of control, including locking out the owner, but in this case, the T&Cs do not explicitly say that.
That’s the key legal difference here:
- If Octopus meant “exclusive” to mean you, the owner, may never touch your system settings ever again, they would have to state that clearly and unambiguously in the T&Cs.
- Because they didn’t, a reasonable interpretation under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 is that “exclusive” refers to external control rights (no other third-party integrations), not removing your local control as the owner.
How That Applies Here
In our context, that means:
- Octopus has the sole external right to send control signals to the inverter, no other external party is permitted simultaneously.
- But as the system owner, I am not a “third party”, I am the first party. Their exclusive commitment does not mean I relinquish my ownership or my ability to maintain my own system.
- The exclusivity applies only to external parties, not to the owner themselves.
Here is something very interesting, the last clause in the T&C, 2.16.9 is very telling from a legal standpoint.
It’s essentially a liability disclaimer that says:
“We know this tariff may operate in a way you don’t like, or even damage your equipment, and we’re not responsible if it does.”
That does two things:
- It admits awareness that their control may cause harm or scheduling failures.
- It shifts risk to the customer, which is only valid in law if the customer was fully informed and the term is deemed fair.
If Octopus’s control mode locks you out permanently, forces unsafe charge/discharge behaviour, or ignores solar production (which in my case it does), then there’s a reasonable argument that they are in breach of their duty of care to avoid causing foreseeable harm, and that the term might be considered unfair because it gives them wide control while disclaiming all responsibility.
Actually, I didn’t ask you for the legal definition of “exclusive”. I said that I would be interested to see the source of your definition of “ exclusive”, which you quoted as:
“The “exclusive” wording in the T&Cs simply means I won’t give another third party direct control of my inverter at the same time.“
I agree with the two definitions in your latest post, though I fail to see how they match your earlier definition I questioned. I also question the “strict letter of the law” and the commentary that follows it. This appears to be your interpretation.
The Wikipedia definition you quoted is interesting:
“Legal power to do or receive something, and to allow/deny others the right to perform the same action or to acquire the same benefit.”.
If you Give Octopus the exclusive rights to control your equipment, doesn’t the emboldened (by me) section mean that they can legally deny you the right to control it by locking you out?
You also quote T&C section 2.16.9, but this is not applicable to the Intelligent Octopus Flux tariff. This only applies to the Intelligent Drive Pack tariff. You are quite correct though, that it demonstrates that Octopus are aware and that the risk is passed to the customer. This is what contracts are all about and is why you should be careful what you sign up to.
Apologies, I skipped straight to the end earlier, but in 2.4.2 Intelligent Octopus Flux the key clauses are:
2.4.2.8(d) – Exclusive rights to enter contracts for Demand Response Services with my Low Carbon Technology.
2.4.2.8(e) – Exclusive right to control my Low Carbon Technology to deliver on those services.
2.4.2.8(f) – Prohibition on joining third party Demand Response schemes.
2.4.2.9–2.4.2.10 – They will “use reasonable efforts” to manage charging/discharging, but accept no liability for compatibility, preference alignment, wear, scheduling failure, or electrical faults.
The way I see it: if Octopus accepts no responsibility for damage or operational issues, then I must take responsibility myself. That means retaining at least some ability to protect my equipment when needed.
At this stage, I don’t have the patience to keep going in circles on this. My stance remains unchanged: I will stay compliant with the T&Cs as I interpret them, but if I ever need to challenge Octopus or GivEnergy, I will.
Frankly, this has gone beyond a forum discussion, what’s needed is a clear position from Octopus, GivEnergy, or a solicitor. I may reach out to Black Belt Barrister to see if he’s willing to analyse the legal position on this.
As with so many things in the UK right now, if we don’t challenge ambiguous or overreaching terms, companies will continue to push boundaries, and I’m not in the habit of giving up my rights without question.
Id be interested in seeing a copy of Black Belt Barrister’s analysis (I had to Google it) if you obtain one.
I’ve decided to delete all my posts related to having any control. Seems the choice is simple, comply, whether the T&Cs hold water or not, or risk being cut off from the tariff.
I’ve learned this lesson before. Years ago, I bought a game from a publisher that was going under, quietly. Right before the inevitable rug pull, they ran massive sales, I dropped £300. When the game died and vanished from Steam, I asked for a refund. Steam said no. My credit card company agreed with me, so I filed a dispute. Steam’s response? Lock my account. The unspoken message was clear: “We own all your games. Challenge us and we’ll take them away.” I had to drop it.
Since then, I don’t buy anything from Steam that needs a third-party server to work, and I stick to GOG or… let’s just say more “independent” options.
The moral? It’s rarely worth challenging the system, and it’s rarely worth standing up for anyone else. After all, “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”
Looks like I’ve joined the club.
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Nobody suggested compliance. Only pointing out what the terms you signed up to mean. It’s your choice whether you comply or not. I said before that I am in a similar situation and I am quietly dealing with it in my own way, which I won’t be elaborating on.
@WillyReckitt It’s not about the terms we sign up to – the problem is that the terms are deliberately vague and left open to interpretation, while Octopus takes zero responsibility if anything goes wrong.
In my case I fully comply with the terms as they are written and interpreted under UK Consumer Law. The bigger issue is this: if you ever challenge those terms, and you win (which you almost certainly would under UK law), the “best case” is Octopus remove you from the tariff or refuse to accept you as a customer again. The “worst case” is they withdraw the tariff altogether, because I don’t believe they could rewrite the T&Cs in a way that is both crystal clear and still legally compliant.
I genuinely don’t think they are permitted to state that you must hand over all control of your own system indefinitely, until such time they allow you to regain access or you change tariffs.
It took me a while to see this, just as others have before me – that you can’t fight this kind of system openly. The choice ends up being either: quietly work around it in your own way, or “go with it.” As the saying goes: Don’t rock the boat.
The terms are not vague.
They offer you very good rates, especially if you have a large PV array and low home usage.
In return, you allow them to:
- Collect data about your system, which they use to calculate your available capacity at any time.
- Use this data to enter into contract, allowing them to sell your available capacity at short notice, which creates a lucrative revenue stream for them and helps balance the grid (this is why they can offer such good rates).
- Excusively ( as previously defined ) control your equipment, allowing them to deliver the capacity they have contacted out.
- Take no responsibility for any additional wear and tear on your equipment.
All this is in the terms and conditions of the tariff, written in plain simple English.
It is your choice whether you sign up to the terms. It is also up to you whether you abide by these terms, but note that the terms also allow them to remove you from the tariff if you do not comply.
You say that you are fully compliant with the terms as they are written and interpreted under UK Consumer Law. I do not believe that this is true. They are doing exactly what the terms of the agreement you signed up to say. You are of course free to challenge this, but I very much doubt that you would get anywhere.
The bottom line is that they offer a tariff with clearly defined terms, some of which you like, some you don’t. It is entirely up you you whether you sign up to this tariff.
I 100% agree with your final paragraph, but would add a third option. If you don’t like it, don’t sign up to it.
@WillyReckitt you’re dressing this up as “plain English”, but what you’re really saying is: Octopus reserve the right to control everything, disclaim responsibility for everything, and leave all the risk with the customer.
The T&Cs are deliberately vague where it matters most:
- Exclusive rights to control the battery but no clarity on whether customers can run calibrations, overrides, or protect their own kit.
- Use reasonable efforts but no liability if they don’t. That’s not plain, that’s a legal cop-out.
- Exclusive rights to enter demand response contracts translation: they monetise your asset for profit, you take the wear, and they disclaim the cost.
- Eligibility at our discretion another trapdoor clause letting them boot you off whenever they like.
You call that “clear”? It’s the exact opposite it’s a one-sided contract that leaves the customer exposed. And under UK consumer law, terms like that aren’t automatically enforceable, no matter how much Octopus want them to be.
The irony is, I do comply, precisely because the only winning move is not to fight them openly. But let’s not pretend these terms are transparent or balanced, they are written to be flexible for Octopus and vague enough to deter challenge.
Your “take it or leave it” line misses the whole point: a fair market doesn’t depend on people silently swallowing unfair terms; it depends on companies writing contracts that are actually clear, balanced, and legally compliant.
Please see below T&C as it is currently presented:
2.4.2 Intelligent Octopus Flux
2.4.2.1 Intelligent Octopus Flux is a Variable Rate Tariff, with your daily standing charge, a quoted day rate per kWh and a special “flux” rate (for three hours, from 16:00 to 19:00 - the “flux period”) for your imported and exported energy.
2.4.2.2 The Intelligent Octopus Flux tariff is for customers with a home battery of a type approved by us and that is located at the home that we supply.
2.4.2.3 The Intelligent Octopus Flux tariff is a combined import and export tariff, and you therefore cannot be on any other electricity tariffs whilst on the Intelligent Octopus Flux tariff, with the exception of Octopus Power Pack export.
2.4.2.4 By agreeing to be on Intelligent Octopus Flux, you also accept Octopus Energy’s Export Tariff Terms and Conditions.
2.4.2.5 You agree that any feed in tariff (FiT) payments you may currently be receiving for your exported energy will be stopped when you move to Intelligent Octopus Flux and will be replaced by export payments on the Intelligent Octopus Flux tariff, once you have switched to Intelligent Octopus Flux you will not subsequently be able to revert to your previous export tariff terms and rate. If Octopus Energy is not your FiT supplier, you agree to inform your current FiT supplier that you should no longer receive export payments from them as they have been replaced by export payments from the Intelligent Octopus Flux tariff.
2.4.2.6 To be eligible for this tariff, you must meet the eligibility criteria described in section 2.4.7 below, and agree to download the Octopus Energy app and register your battery on the app. We will need to have control access to your battery throughout this contract for you to remain eligible for this tariff. If at any time you do not have an active authorisation for integration with a supported battery and you have not had such active authorisation for a period of more than 30 days, you will no longer be eligible for this tariff and we will switch you to one of our fairly priced standard tariffs and you will be billed according to your usage under that tariff.
2.4.2.7 To be eligible for this tariff you must:
- a) Have a Smart Meter for both import and export installed;
- b) Have a photovoltaic (PV) solar system and a home battery installed and operational at the property which we supply; and
- c) If we request it, provide us with your G98 / G99 certification from your distributor.
- d) If we request it, provide us with your MCS certificate for your PV system
- e) If we request it, provide evidence of the Feed-in-Tariff for your PV system.
Note, we may already have the information in c) and d) above if you are on an existing export tariff with us, but please have this available if we require this.
2.4.2.8 By signing up to the Intelligent Octopus Flux tariff, you agree to:
- a) Give us permission to integrate and connect with your battery using your home wifi, in-built sim card, or other method as agreed between us.
- b) Give us permission to influence the times of operation of your battery.
- c) Us collecting data about your battery, including but not limited to model, power consumption, operating preferences, any actions you take to operate these assets and how these assets perform. We will use this information to optimise your asset operations, send operating instructions to your battery to generate bills and our general research into the operation of similar devices.
- d) Give us exclusive rights to enter contracts for the provision of Demand Response Services with your Low Carbon Technology while you remain on this tariff. By agreeing to these T&Cs terms you authorise Octopus to enter Demand Response Services contracts with your Low Carbon Technology and share relevant data with the relevant Market Operator, including but not limited to your half-hourly consumption data, address and Meter Point Administration Number (MPAN) where necessary.
- e) Give us the exclusive right to control your Low Carbon Technology to deliver on Demand Response Services when required by such service contracts.
- f) Not enter your Premises into any third party schemes that enter you into a Demand Response Service while you remain on this tariff. If we become aware that you have joined a third party scheme, we have the right to remove you from Intelligent Octopus Flux.
2.4.2.9 We will use reasonable efforts to discharge your battery during the flux period hours and charge your battery outside the flux period, but we accept no liability where this is not the case.
2.4.2.10 We do not guarantee that this tariff will be compatible with your battery or that it will operate in accordance with your preferences. We accept no liability for wear of your battery, scheduling failure or other electric faults. Our liability to you is as set out in our General Terms and Conditions.
2.4.2.11 If you sign up to our Intelligent Octopus Flux tariff but do not meet these eligibility criteria, or at any time during the term of the tariff one or more of the eligibility criteria cease to apply, you agree that you will be removed from the Intelligent Octopus Flux tariff and we can place you on an alternative tariff that we consider is more appropriate for your circumstances. We will let you know if we do this and advise you of the rates and terms that apply to the alternative tariff.
Yes, that pretty much sums it up.
…. or switch tariff.